"There's no question that al Qaeda and Zarqawi and people were in Iraq," Rumsfeld argued. "They aggregated there."

"If we hadn't invaded, they wouldn't have been there," Zakaria pointed out.

"We don't know that," Rumsfeld insisted. "You don't know that. I don't know that."

"But they went in to fight us. So since we weren't there, why would they have gone into Iraq?" Zakaria countered.

"Why have they gone into Yemen and Somalia?" Rumsfeld asked. "Why do al Qaeda go anywhere? They go where it's hospitable."

"Right, and Iraq hadn't been hospitable," Zakaria said.