Mike - you state that the section of law Ernie cited only applies if the individual is stopped during the commission of a crime yet both the article you referenced by Ilya Shapiro and the actual text of the law indicates you're wrong. The section cited by Ernie appears to apply to any lawful stop, detention or arrest which is a much broader range of possible law enforcement contacts then when someone is stopped during the commission of a crime. 

Take for instance checkpoint stops. If you've read any of my articles, you should know that per the U.S. Supreme Court a checkpoint stop represents a seizure/detention under the 4th amendment regardless of whether or not it's based upon probable cause, reasonable suspicion or no suspicion at all. Further, AZ courts have upheld the use of checkpoints by AZ law enforcement agencies despite there being no explicit legal authorization for them under State law. 

Using the wording of SB1070 & the fact the courts generally consider checkpoint stops to be lawful, what's to stop AZ law enforcement agencies from conducting suspicionless checkpoints within the state and using the initial contact from such suspicionless seizures as a basis to further a detention under provisions of SB1070? 

Do you find this very real possibility troubling or perfectly acceptable?

The "1070 thing"? :) 

It has always been a "Freedom Thing" with me.

The mental gymnastics that people go through to justify obvious contradictions between what government promises and the reality of the situation is not lost on the young and/or informed. The very same people that screamed just as loud 15 years ago when the Federal Government expanded their reach with 'cooperation with local law enforcement' (multi-jurisdictional task forces - Fusion Centers - deputizing of locals as Federal Marshals etc.) are often the same ones that have been used to trumpet the promotion of the same exact thing if will _promise_ a targeted attack, via 'attrition' (the act of weakening or exhausting by constant harassment, abuse, or attack ) on EVERYBODY to get those unable or unwilling to show the LEO their Government Documents.

Ernest, you've over-analyzed this issue.  You've gone off the deep end.  Even if you're right, you're doing more harm than good by fomenting division among us.  Relatively speaking, National ID is the least of our worries right now.  You'd do more good if you focused on ways to unite the People.  Please just drop the 1070 thing.

11-1051

B. FOR ANY LAWFUL STOP, DETENTION OR ARREST MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL

(If you are interested then just read the law, link above)

( You are presumed legal IF you show ID.... I'm just the messenger :)

A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:

1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE.

2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE.

3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL IDENTIFICATION.

4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.

 Oh yeah you are right Mike.  The federal government restrains itself.

Also, the very agency trying to put every american into the national id database, when handed the data they are looking for by the State of Arizona will refrain from putting it in that database even though there is no reason in law for them to refrain from doing so.

You're right.

Well you seemed to imply that when you came to his defense after I posted my objections, John. Also, a national ID won't be the end result. Just because governments share information does not mean that driver's licenses automatically become national ID cards.

 I, John Green, for one never said that the law said that MIKE.  Thanks for yet another one of your red herrings.  A state cant create a national id, duh.  No one ever said it could.  National ID is DATA, not a card.  The sections in question hand over the necessary DATA for the feds to turn Arizona licenses into national ids.

Rein yourself in, boy.  Quit trying to punch illusions and stick to the cold, hard facts and words AS THEY ARE, not according to your own interpretation, opinion, emotions or spin.

And there is nothing in the law that SAYS one has to carry ID nor will it lead to a national I.D. card.

I knew Russell Pearce when I lived in Mesa for 5 years from 2000 to 2005. Pearce is retired cop who has a very strong libertarian streak. He also co-sponsored a resolution overwhelmingly passed by the AZ legislature expressing AZ's concerns with THE PATRIOT ACT that the ACLU supported.

How do I know this? Because I gave him the text of the resolution that got passed.

Here is Ilya Shapiro's assessment of the immigration law: http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/05/26/update-on-the-arizona-immigration-issue/

 So have I Mike.  Don't overestimate yourself.

"How it would apply" in your opinion is IRRELEVANT.

What it actually SAYS is relevant.

I would take the response to my comments a bit more seriously, if the poster identified themselves. Since he/she/it does not therefore I will only respond by saying that it was due to yours truly pushing the outer edge of this website's envelope and ruffling many feathers many times over with my op-eds that I will be glad to do so again since it is clear that Ernie isn't interested in the truth as much as he is about furthering his own public image.

The poster should realize is that part of being objective is to gather all of the facts before making a conclusion. Facts are good for Ernie only when it gives him the ability to be in the limelight.

Unlike Hancock I have actually read and investigated the law and how it will apply. If Ernie did, he would realize that his assertion is wrong and discontinue his campaign of lies. However, if he wants to shoot himself in the foot, that is his business. The only thing is is that sad part is the libertarian movement's reputation could suffer badly because of his shinanegans.

As I said in my column about thi subject, the law is based soley on documentation, written to apply to everyone equally and, despite opponent's claims, and there is no requirement in SB 1070 that people in Arizona have to carry any identification.

The documentation sections of the law apply only in instances when someone applies for public benefits. That's it.

The only time this will have any effect is when a police officer stops someone during the commission of a crime and even at that there are protections in place that a cop must meet prior to utilizing SB 1070 or for his or her application of the law can be considered valid in court.

Ilya Shapiro has done a review of the law and likes it. However, I will not hold my breath that Ernie will have him on his show since to do so would rid Hancock of one more thing to rant about.

 Mike, I have personally vetted and confirmed every word Ernie said.

I cannot believe your hypocracy.  As an objectivist, you should know there's no "take with a grain of salt" a statement such as 1+1=2.

a=a, right?

That means, objectively speaking, if you have not availed yourself of the facts, then you can only logically surmise that Ernie is either right or he is wrong.  Objectively speaking, it's a binary question, no grain of salt.

The FACT is Mike, that you have not availed yourself of all the facts.  Therefore, you unobjective OPINION on the matter is irrelevant.  Logically and objectively, you can only surmise that either Ernie is right or Ernie is wrong, then each possibility can be validated objectively and your position will end up either being right or wrong upon validation.

The only thing I CAN objectively state regarding your comment is that your statement is incredibly logically hypocritical coming from someone who claims to be an objectivist.

I would take Ernie's interpretation with a grain of salt. Without having actually listened to this, Ernie obviously is hyping it up to garner himself publicity without taking into account the facts about SB 1070. He is his own worst enemy and is just as much as media hound as the politicians he claims to abhor. If he was truly interested in the facts he would either have Senator Russell Pearce or Cato Institute staff attorney Ilya Shapiro on his show.