FREEDOM FORUM: Discussion

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Comment by Powell Gammill
Entered on:

MS. LERNER:Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. My name is Lois Lerner, and I’m the director of exempt organizations at the Internal Revenue Service. I have been a government employee for over 34 years.

I initially practiced law at the Department of Justice and later at the Federal Election Commission. In 2001 I became — I moved to the IRS to work in the exempt organizations office, and in 2006 I was promoted to be the director of that office.

Exempt organizations oversees about 1.6 million tax-exempt organizations and processes over 60,000 applications for tax exemption every year. As director, I’m responsible for about 900 employees nationwide and administer a budget of almost $100 million.

My professional career has been devoted to fulfilling responsibilities of the agencies for which I have worked, and I am very proud of the work that I have done in government.

On May 14th the Treasury inspector general released a report finding that the exempt organizations field office in Cincinnati, Ohio, used inappropriate criteria to identify for further review applications from organizations that planned to engage in political activity, which may mean that they did not qualify for tax exemption.

On that same day, the Department of Justice launched an investigation into the matters described in the inspector general’s report. In addition, members of this committee have accused me of providing false information when I responded to questions about the IRS processing of applications for tax exemption.

I have not done anything wrong. I have not broken any laws, I have not violated any IRS rules or regulations, and I have not provided false information to this or any other congressional committee.

And while I would very much like to answer the committee’s questions today, I’ve been advised by my counsel to assert my constitutional right not to testify or answer questions related to the subject matter of this hearing. After very careful consideration, I’ve decided to follow my counsel’s advice and not testify or answer any of the questions today.

Because I’m asserting my right not to testify, I know that some people will assume that I’ve done something wrong. I have not. One of the basic functions of the Fifth Amendment is to protect innocent individuals, and that is the protection I’m invoking today.

Thank you.

REP. ISSA: Thank you for your testimony.

Ms. Lerner, earlier the ranking member made me aware of a response we have that is purported to come from you in regards to questions that the IG asked during his investigation. Can we have you authenticate the — simply the questions and answers previously given to the inspector general?

MS. LERNER: I don’t know what that is. I’d have to look at it.

REP. ISSA: OK.

(To staff.) Would you please make it available to the witness? (Pause.)

MS. LERNER: This appears to be my response.

REP. ISSA: So it’s your testimony that — as far as your recollection, that is your response?

MS. LERNER: That’s correct.

REP. ISSA: Ms. Lerner, the topic of today’s hearing is the IRS improper targeting of certain groups for additional scrutiny regarding their application for tax-exempt status. As director of exempt organizations of the Tax Exempt and Government Entities Division of the IRS, you are uniquely positioned to provide testimony to help this committee better understand how and why the IRS targeted these groups.

To that end, I must ask you to reconsider, particularly in light of the fact that you have given not once but twice testimony before this committee, under oath, this morning. You have made an opening statement, in which you made assertions of your innocence, assertions you did nothing wrong, assertions you broke no laws or rules. Additionally, you have authenticated earlier answers to the IG.

At this point I believe you have not asserted your rights but in fact have effectively waived your rights. Would you please see counsel for further guidance at — on this matter while we wait?

MS. LERNER: I will not answer any questions or testify about the subject matter of this committee’s meeting.

REP. ISSA: We will take your refusal as a refusal to testify. The witness and counsel are dismissed.

REPRESENTATIVE HAROLD WATSON “TREY” GOWDY III (R-SC): Point of order?

REP. ISSA: The gentleman will state a point of order. Please wait.

REP. GOWDY: Mr. Issa, Mr. [Eljah] Cummings [D., Md.] just said we should run this like a courtroom, and I agree with him. She just testified. She just waived her Fifth Amendment right to privilege. You don’t get to tell your side of the story and then not be subjected to cross-examination. That’s not the way it works. She waived her right to Fifth Amendment privilege by issuing and opening statement. She ought to stand here and answer our questions. (Applause.)

REP. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman?

REP. ISSA: Mr. Cummings.

REP. CUMMINGS: I — first of all, with all respect for my good friend Mr. Gowdy, I said I would like to see it run like a federal court. Unfortunately, this is not a federal court, and she does have the right, and I think — and we have to adhere to that.

REP. ISSA: Thank you. We’ll pause for a moment.

(Pause.)

Ms. Lerner, I’ll ask you just a couple of additional questions. Is it possible that we could narrow the scope of questions and that there are some areas that you would be able to answer any questions on here today?

MS. LERNER: I will not answer any questions or testify today.

REP. ISSA: Ms. Lerner, would you be willing to answer questions specifically related to the earlier statements made under oath before this committee?

MS. LERNER: I decline to answer that question for the reasons I’ve already given.

REP. ISSA: For this reason, I have no choice but to excuse the witness, subject to recall after we seek specific counsel on the questions of whether or not the constitutional right of the Fifth Amendment has been properly waived. Notwithstanding that, in consultation with the Department of Justice as to whether or not limited or use immunity could be negotiated, the witness and counsel are dismissed.

The court will please rearrange the seating.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/05/22/irss-lerner-testimony-i-did-not-break-any-laws/

 

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